Frederica Freyberg:
But what of the methods used by the state to crack down on fraud, the use of reasonable suspicion to shut down providers? Permanent bars to licensure based on past, even misdemeanor, records? Someone at the epicenter of these issues is Milwaukee Democratic Rep. Tamara Grigsby. She's chair of the Assembly Committee on Children and Families and a member of the Legislature's Joint Finance Committee. She joins us in Milwaukee, and thank you for doing so.

Tamara Grigsby:
Thank you for having me.

Frederica Freyberg:
You are clearly at the epicenter of this issue given your positions in the Legislature and in the district. What is your response to what some of in the child care community and Milwaukee regard as this heavy hand when it comes to the crackdown on fraud?

Tamara Grigsby:
Well, I'd like to start off by saying that we have to be very clear about this. Independent organizations, the Legislative Audit Bureau did find $20 million in fraud at a time where I was sitting on Joint Finance trying to manage a $60 billion budget with a $6 billion deficit. So there was a concern about finding fraud and getting rid of it and protecting taxpayer dollars. At the same time, what I will say is, I do have some serious concerns about how some of the legislation and some of the provisions in the budget have been enforced, and there seems to be some unintended consequences for how the implementation of some of those things have come about. So that is something that I'm very concerned about, and I really feel for some of the stories that I've heard, and I'm working very hard on trying to address some of those concerns.

Frederica Freyberg:
What are your serious concerns in terms of some of the legislation and how it's been meted out?

Tamara Grigsby:
Well, one the things I want to start with is during the budget process when we talked about the department being able to go after the fraud that the Legislative Audit Bureau found and we put — and when I say we, I mean my office, me. We put in language in the budget that says to go after someone, that fraud had to be intentional and egregious. The governor vetoed out those words. So that left them with the ability to go after people without any proof of intention, any measurement of egregiousness, and so that is what, in my opinion, has resulted in somewhat — what appears to be somewhat of a witch hunt because there's no parameters that you use to go after people. That's one of the concerns that I really have. The second one is that there are real issues with due process. I've heard from many, many providers that once they have been suspended or revoked that they don't have the recourse that should be expected in any other case where someone's license has been revoked. So we're working with the department on that, and the last thing I'll say is that we are — my office is currently working on legislation, waiver legislation that would give the department the ability to waive people based on their, you know, individual circumstances as opposed to just doing this broad sweep of, you know, all providers without taking into account their individual circumstances.

Frederica Freyberg:
What does that mean, waive people?

Tamara Grigsby:
Well, the department would be able to look at individual cases. If someone were revoked or suspended, the department — the person would be able to say, ‘I want to apply for a waiver,’ and then the department would look at their circumstances and determine whether or not, you know, their circumstances warranted them, you know, having a waiver. Like some of the stories I have seen, clearly someone who made a mistake, you know, 20, 30 years ago and have proven themselves to be a quality provider and have done, you know, many of the things that we expected for a quality provider to do should be given a chance to have a second look, and so this would provide a door, an open door for that to happen.

Frederica Freyberg:
Go ahead.

Tamara Grigsby:
I was going to say that we also looked at some of the crimes included in that legislation and moved from permanent bars to temporary bars so that they can be reviewed after five years and giving people, again, another chance to get back into the program.

Frederica Freyberg:
That's a piece of legislation that you would like to author and put through changing those permanent bars for things like public assistance violations or even cable and satellite theft?

Tamara Grigsby:
Absolutely. Those are the areas, the financial crimes are where we're moving it — we're trying to move it from permanent to five-year bar, and that's — it's more than looking at legislation. We actually drafted it, and we're looking to have a public hearing at the end of the month.

Frederica Freyberg:
Do you believe that the state has kind of swept up innocent providers, or do you believe that they've done a good job in ferreting out fraud?

Tamara Grigsby:
Well, I think it's a mixed bag. I think that — I mean, again, no one can deny the fact that there are some bad providers out there that were committing fraud, and again, as a steward of taxpayer dollars, I have a responsibility to make sure those dollars are spent in the most efficient way. At the same time, I do think that the department has — its administration has jumped in light of a lot of bad press, and may not have been as thoughtful in the ways and the methods of going about this thing. To me, the language in the budget that said the fraud — the suspicion has to be intentional, that there's intent and there's a level of egregiousness and to veto that out, you know, I think that, you know, that causes some real — raises some real questions.

Frederica Freyberg:
Now I do know that the Joint Finance Committee, which you are a part of, is expected to vote this month on the governor and secretary's YoungStar childcare rating system. How do you expect to vote on that?

Tamara Grigsby:
I have some serious questions about the child care rating system. I have always supported quality child care. Before I came to the Legislature, I was working as a social worker. I always worked with kids and families, so quality care is my number one priority, and I think this could be a good system, but there are some questions, mainly related to due process that I mentioned earlier. If people are having problems with process now and with recourse now, I am hesitant to implement another system that may take providers out of the program when that recourse is not there right now. So we're really working with the department to try to get them to get a system in place where people can appeal and have a fair process to go through so that they can, you know, have their rights respected.

Frederica Freyberg:
And take part in that system. Tamara Grigsby, thank you very much.

Tamara Grigsby:
Thank you.

Frederica Freyberg:
The state Department of Children and Families reports that nearly 50 providers are being criminally investigated by the Milwaukee County district attorney's office as part of the anti-fraud task force.