Frederica Freyberg:
Now, proposed state budget provisions change the W-2 program in a number of ways, including extending from two to five years the length someone can be in the program, potentially eliminating Learn Fair, which cuts benefits of W-2 families if their children do not go to school. And there would be changes to sanctions for breaking rules. W-2 costs the state more than $325 million over two years. Wisconsin Works falls under the state Department of Children and Families. The secretary of the department joins us now. Reggie Bicha, thanks very much for being here.

Reggie Bicha:
Happy to be with you.

Frederica Freyberg:
Critics of these W-2 revisions say that they would make Wisconsin a welfare magnet again, which is what the reform was originally designed to curtail. What do you say to that?

Reggie Bicha:
We believe the changes to the W-2 program that Gov. Doyle proposed serve to strengthen and build on the program. Gov. Doyle has said many times the best social program is a good-paying job, and we want to make tweaks to the W-2 program to position us to more effectively get more parents like the ones you highlighted in your story good-paying jobs.

Frederica Freyberg:
What are those tweaks that the governor and you believe are necessary to make this a better program?

Reggie Bicha:
The program was created back in the mid-'90s, and at that time we had some 90,000 individuals who were on AFDC. Today we average anywhere from 6,400 to 7,400 participants. What we know is they often cycle on the program. Many go out, get a job, have the job for 60 days, 90 days, lose the job and come back into the program. What the governor would like us to do is bolster post-employment support, help more parents when they get jobs overcome the multiple barriers they experience, mental health, substance abuse, child care issues or other challenges to make sure they stay on the job.

Frederica Freyberg:
Why modify the sanctions? Some of the critics are saying you're just making it easier for people to be dependent on welfare.

Reggie Bicha:
It's funny that you ask that. We've been asking the same questions. When you look at the governor's proposal, what he does is clarifies the language around a parent refusing to participate in the program. Right now, we put a burden on a W-2 agency to prove that a parent is somehow intentionally refusing to participate in the program. What the governor's language does is simplifies that and says if a parent refuses to participate, they can be ended in the program. There's no need to prove that they intentionally didn't participate in the activities. If you don't do what's expected of you, then you don't get to participate in W-2.

Frederica Freyberg:
So the sanctions are not lessened. They may be streamlined and toughened.

Reggie Bicha:
That's exactly what the governor has proposed.

Frederica Freyberg:
Now, on the elimination of Learn Fair, many people might say that, you know, sending your children to school and making sure they go lessens this kind of generational drag of poverty. So why ditch the Learn Fair part of W-2?

Reggie Bicha:
It's a great question. Learn Fair was an innovative idea back in the '90s when it was created. What we now know is it isn't effective at getting kids to school. The legislature's own audit bureau did a study back in 2005 and found that it was ineffective and suggested it be removed. The University of Milwaukee also provided a similar recommendation to end Learn Fair. You know, it also doesn't quite seem to fit into our values in Wisconsin, that if you're a hard-working parent and you have an adolescent who's struggling in school and maybe two or three younger kids, and you're doing the best that you can to get that adolescent to stay in school, that the consequence would be loss of funds that are used to help buy clothes, pay for food, pay for housing for the rest of your family. We want kids to go to school. That's why Gov. Doyle has created the Wisconsin Covenant program, a program that helps eighth-graders to sign a pledge, do well in high school, get a B average, continue their education beyond high school. We think we need to strengthen our child care program in the state of Wisconsin and invest in high-quality child care. We know that when we do that, kids, especially children from low-income families, are able to make up the gap that poverty creates in terms of their school readiness and those kids are more likely to graduate from high school.

Frederica Freyberg:
What do you know about the increase in numbers in this program as this economy continues to stagnate?

Reggie Bicha:
Sure. What we've seen in the past year is an increase in the cash benefit caseload for W-2 participants by about 20 percent, 21 percent. We think that that is largely due to a downturn in the economy.

Frederica Freyberg:
All right. Secretary, thanks very much for joining us.

Reggie Bicha:
My pleasure.